Conversation with a self-identified Muslim

A few days ago I swapped a few comments with a self identified Muslim, "amin49." I think they are instructive. We pick him up here.

As usual, the wolf is crying foul. The wolf is going back more than 1400 hundred years ago to tell us about the 700 hundred who were killed by Muhammad. The wolf forgets the more than 20 million who died in WWII as the results of Christians fighting. The wolf forgot to mention the moe than 100,000 Japanese who were evaporated in two days, because of the nuclear bombs. Listen Mr. I do not want to go through the atrocities that "Chritians" inflicted on others. Islam does not promote the killing of civilians. Muslims make mistakes. Islam has been in the Middle East for more than 1400 years and you still find Christians and Jews who are Arabs and live in the Arab land. Compare that to what Happened in Spain as the result of the "Reconquista", and tell me what was the languages and religions in South America before the western "explorations"? You want to tell me people of that continent could only talk through the sign language and suddenly Christianity is the only religion in that continent. Read about what the "crusaders" use to train on(Jews living in the West) before heading to the Middle East? Talk about the rift between the Vatican and the Jews and when they settle it? I an asking you to open your heart and eyes and you will accept Islam.

Posted by amin49

I responded.

What utter hooey.

The Nazis, Fascist and Japanese who attacked the world were not Christians.

The Soviet Union who brought us the Cold War was not Christian.

The crusades happened a 1000 years or so ago in response to the expansionist Islamic rulers in the ME. The last really big battle was at Vienna in 1683. After that the Islamic movement went into a long decline.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/

Most people in these forums who quote scripture remind me of a bear riding a bicycle. That would include Islamic and Christian "schoolars."

After WWI and the breakup of the Turkish empires numerous radical Muslim groups came into being. They were active helpers with the Germans in WWII.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=53F6B0E7-A87D-456B-BFE9-918491CCF45E

The establishment of Israel happened. A war was fought. Your side lost. Get over it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/flash/world/israel/IsraelHistory.htm

The Catholic church was reformed starting with Martin Luther and many Protestant branches have come from that. It took years but the result was a western civilization that rejected theocracies in favor of secular societies.

That has not been the case of Islam. Sharia law is so interwoven in the theocracies of the ME it will be almost impossible to establish democracies.

The development of radicals in the ME can be picked up during WWII and onward through the Cold War when both the Soviets and the West supported various groups. Bad judgement on both sides but it happened. Get over it.

Remember that it was the US who would not join with France and England to take back the Suez Canal when Egypt seized it. Perhaps we should have. After all, Egypt did not build it.

Remember that it was the US who interceded in Koso to prevent the slaughter of Moslems.

Any reasonable person can see that Islam has developed a set of radicals, loosely organized who will fight with each other one day and against each other the next.

These radicals started attacking the west in the late 60's and the US in 1979, followed by increasing numbers of attacks cumulating in 9/11. Unfortunately for the radicals they hit us when we had a President who understood that we were at war, and has led the country to war against the radicals.

Afghanistan was important as a symbol, but the real important country was/is Iraq with a base of educated citizens, a small amount of secular government experience and enough oil to support itself. Saddam had the poor judgement to run his mouth enough to convince the world he had WMD's. al-Qaida had the poor judgement to rush into Iraq and has largely been wiped out, although like cancer they can come back.

The reform of the Islamic faith and the stamping out of the radicals must be accomplished by other Muslims.

As part of this reform Muslims must understand that Sharia law and a secular society cannot coexist.

The use of nukes on Japan was a net saving of lives. Especially US lives. That's important. The rulers in the ME should look at that, and what we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan when they are deciding which side they want to be on.

Chew on the above.

In the meantime you can quit complaining about not getting special treatment in the US.

You are here. Obey our laws and quit trying to implement Sharia law.

You can also start explaining such actions as:

Women being executed because they are accused of adultery.

Women being hung because they have been raped.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=ECF92FB5-49CD-4829-8ED8-849E9870CEEC

Gays being attacked.
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/06/05/gay-bashing-in-amsterdam-goes-unnoticed-in-us/

Honor killings of female family members who supposed have dissed the male members.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

Riots over cartoons that kill hundreds.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4728616.stm

Approval of killing of Jews and Christians in jihad.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece

Charter schools in the US teaching it is okay to kill jews and seize property.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25106145/

Religious leaders praising violence.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730019.ece

Visible demonstrations of unpatroitic acts.
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44664

And finally, quit whining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

And, of course, I have many other examples.

Your turn.

He responded:

I did not expect to see an "Ayatollah" in the Christian faith. I thought that this line of sorting people into Christians and non Christians is reserved to Muslim extremists. The second thing, most of us are born in the US, so I do not need you to lecture me about being an American. This is a discussion about faith and if you want to have a serious discussion about religion we can do it if not, then thank you for your time.
If you add up all the people who were killed by Muslims for the last 1400 years ago, the number won't equal to the twenty million who died during WWII, the Indians since the white man came to this land, and the Africans who are still dying under the watch of the western world (to mention Liberia's genocide). Its sad the the whole Catholic faith is built on the notion that the "Jews crucified Jesus" [you need to watch the Passion of Christ and the uproar against Mel Gibson]. Asked Mr Graham, the father, what happened to him after his tapes with President Nixon were made public? You see the atmosphere in this country allows you to attack Muslims and their Faith, but I dare you to say something about the Jews, Moses, and Judiasm. The white man must have an enemy. Call this enemy the Indians, Blacks, Japanese, Soviet Union, and now Muslims and Islam. Mr Bush went to Iraq to look for weapon of mass destruction, then he changed that to spreading democracy, then to stop the civil war, and now to have a stable Iraq. Mr. Nouri Al-Maliki wants a time table to get the troops out of his country, but Mr McCain-and people like you-refused to accept that.
As a Muslim, I am happy that people-Catholics and Jews-are coming together. I am happy that America has only one problem namely "scattered Islamic schools" with less than few thousand students-most of them are born here. I suggest, since your people have experience in this field, you put them in internment camps like what happened to American Japanese.

I responded:

You had written:

The wolf forgets the more than 20 million who died in WWII as the results of Christians fighting.

I replied:

The Nazis, Fascist and Japanese who attacked the world were not Christians. The Soviet Union who brought us the Cold War was not Christian.Therefore the following by you makes no sense.

I did not expect to see an "Ayatollah" in the Christian faith. I thought that this line of sorting people into Christians and non Christians is reserved to Muslim extremists.

You write:

The second thing, most of us are born in the US, so I do not need you to lecture me about being an American. This is a discussion about faith and if you want to have a serious discussion about religion we can do it if not, then thank you for your time.

I reply:

“most of us” is a non-answer. You either were, or were not. Either way it appears that you need education in western history and US history. This is expected of all citizens.

My comments cover faith and religion. If you don’t want to engage and answer we will understand that you are not capable.

You write:

If you add up all the people who were killed by Muslims for the last 1400 years ago, the number won't equal to the twenty million who died during WWII, the Indians since the white man came to this land, and the Africans who are still dying under the watch of the western world (to mention Liberia's genocide). Its sad the the whole Catholic faith is built on the notion that the "Jews crucified Jesus" [you need to watch the Passion of Christ and the uproar against Mel Gibson]. Asked Mr Graham, the father, what happened to him after his tapes with President Nixon were made public? You see the atmosphere in this country allows you to attack Muslims and their Faith, but I dare you to say something about the Jews, Moses, and Judiasm.

I reply:

I made a clear reference to the Reformation and Luther. If you are too uneducated to know of the bloodshed that accompanied that I cannot help you.

But the end result was a secular civilization, culture and countries. The only Muslim country in the ME that even approaches that is Turkey.

You like to mention the history of Europe’s settlement America as a way to establish moral equivalence for the CURRENT actions of the radical Muslim terrorists.
Doesn’t work. By the standards THEN there was nothing unusual. BTW – That doesn’t mean that they are acceptable now.

You write:

The white man must have an enemy. Call this enemy the Indians, Blacks, Japanese, Soviet Union, and now Muslims and Islam. Mr Bush went to Iraq to look for weapon of mass destruction, then he changed that to spreading democracy, then to stop the civil war, and now to have a stable Iraq. Mr. Nouri Al-Maliki wants a time table to get the troops out of his country, but Mr McCain-and people like you-refused to accept that.

I reply:

As noted, Saddam had the bad judgment of convincing the world’s intelligence agencies that he had WMD’s. He may or may not have had some, but the record is clear that he was planning on getting back into that business.

You are right. I don’t know how long we will need to be there as a counter to Iran.

You write:

As a Muslim, I am happy that people-Catholics and Jews-are coming together. I am happy that America has only one problem namely "scattered Islamic schools" with less than few thousand students-most of them are born here.

I reply:

The use of tax payer dollars to fund religious schools is a clear violation of the First Amendment. No matter if that would be one or a billion.

BTW – America also has the problems of Honor Killings, etc.

You write:

I suggest, since your people have experience in this field, you put them in internment camps like what happened to American Japanese.

I reply:

The Japanese Americans were in the camps for a much shorter time than the Palestine refugees have been their camps. Who and what Muslim countries will take them in?

Since you obviously don’t like America’s history or culture I am curious as to why you are here.

He responded:

Again, you are trying to use your definition of American to suit your sick mind. I bet you that you do not believe blacks are Americans. At least in Islam, we treat people equally. The African Americans were forced to embrace Christianity, but were asked to worship in their "Black churches". Reading your answer, I bet you won't accept Obama's conversion to Christianity (even if he was born Muslim).
As for the love of this country. I love this country but not in the way the conservatives, like you, love it. When you love something or someone you care so much about, you do not want it/him/her to bring harm to itself/himself/herself or others.

I replied:

You write:

Again, you are trying to use your definition of American to suit your sick mind. I bet you that you do not believe blacks are Americans. At least in Islam, we treat people equally. The African Americans were forced to embrace Christianity, but were asked to worship in their "Black churches". Reading your answer, I bet you won't accept Obama's conversion to Christianity (even if he was born Muslim).

I reply:

I see that you cannot answer my questions or make an argument for yours. As for treating people equally, I note that you have problems among your own sects. Car bombs, etc., etc.

I would mention Jews and Christians but that is too easy. But can I mention the beheadings and such??

As for blacks, you again want to use historical wrongs of the west as a justification for the current crop of radical Muslim terrorists are doing. That’s called moral equivalence and doesn’t work when examined by intelligent people.
Repeat after me. Two wrongs do not make a right. Kinda basic, eh?

You write:

As for the love of this country. I love this country but not in the way the conservatives, like you, love it. When you love something or someone you care so much about, you do not want it/him/her to bring harm to itself/himself/herself or others.

I reply:

My comment was and is very simple. You appear to not love the country for what it is, but what you want to change it to. I repeat. Study some western history. Study some American history, Learn why and where our Constitution came from.

And understand that we do not think changing because some immigrants find our Constitution unhelpful is the thing to do.


And consider these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dXGJ2rYdA&feature=related

And then read this and you may catch a small clue as to why people are concerned.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece

He replied:

To start again, The first pillar of faith is to believe and say that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger. The Arabic word for god is "Allah". A god that does not need a son, a wife, or any thing to sustain Him. As I mentioned before, Muhammad was and a messenger of God. This idea is very simple and easy to accept and comprehend. God does not need to be afraid of anybody, ask the new conservatives-if you are not with us, your are an enemy-. He does not need to go to a virgin and get her pregrant and after some years that person will be told by his surrogate mom that he is the son of God. There were twelve followers for that person and one of them betrayed him. Then God, who seems weaker than president Bush, will let "His son" die on the cross.
Think of the above for a minute, then compare that to Islam. Islam tells you that God chose humans as messengers and He revealed to them and they go and deliver the message of God. He is the Creator, all Wise, the Mighty, and for that He gives the people every chance to repent and come back to Him. Human laws state that a father cannot be punished for the his son's sins, but God-the all Wise, sends 'His son" to die on the cross for our sins.
About the Sharia laws. If you study the Islamic history, Sharia laws were not exercised except when Muslims established their community and were applied to that community. When Muhammad moved to Madina, the city, there were Jews living there and Muhammad made a treaty with them that "they will have their religion and laws practiced among them" without the involvement of the Muslims. Maybe Muslims converted some churches to mosques, but they did not demolish or destroy any places of Worship for Jews, Christians, Hindus, or other faiths.
Do we want to apply Sharia laws in America? Yes, but not force Sharia laws on anybody. We, like the Chritians, are eager to establish the "Kingdom of God" on earth. We believe firmly that this Kingdom will be a reality one day. As humans with limited capabilities, more than likely, this will take place with the direct intervention of God Almighty. When they ask Einestein about WW3 he said "I cannot tell you about WW3, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones".

I replied:

You write:

To start again, The first pillar of faith is to believe and say that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger. The Arabic word for god is "Allah". A god that does not need a son, a wife, or any thing to sustain Him. As I mentioned before, Muhammad was and a messenger of God. This idea is very simple and easy to accept and comprehend. God does not need to be afraid of anybody, ask the new conservatives-if you are not with us, your are an enemy-. He does not need to go to a virgin and get her pregrant and after some years that person will be told by his surrogate mom that he is the son of God. There were twelve followers for that person and one of them betrayed him. Then God, who seems weaker than president Bush, will let "His son" die on the cross.

I reply:

And your point is that Allah is more powerful than Christ?? Why would you make such a claim?

You write:

Think of the above for a minute, then compare that to Islam. Islam tells you that God chose humans as messengers and He revealed to them and they go and deliver the message of God. He is the Creator, all Wise, the Mighty, and for that He gives the people every chance to repent and come back to Him. Human laws state that a father cannot be punished for the his son's sins, but God-the all Wise, sends 'His son" to die on the cross for our sins.

I reply:

And your point is what? I mean beside some off the wall claim that Islam is more powerful than Christianity? Tell me. Why should we want to let such religious intolerance into our country via immigrants?

You have revealed yourself.

You write:

About the Sharia laws. If you study the Islamic history, Sharia laws were not exercised except when Muslims established their community and were applied to that community. When Muhammad moved to Madina, the city, there were Jews living there and Muhammad made a treaty with them that "they will have their religion and laws practiced among them" without the involvement of the Muslims. Maybe Muslims converted some churches to mosques, but they did not demolish or destroy any places of Worship for Jews, Christians, Hindus, or other faiths.


Do we want to apply Sharia laws in America? Yes, but not force Sharia laws on anybody. We, like the Chritians, are eager to establish the "Kingdom of God" on earth. We believe firmly that this Kingdom will be a reality one day. As humans with limited capabilities, more than likely, this will take place with the direct intervention of God Almighty. When they ask Einestein about WW3 he said "I cannot tell you about WW3, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones".


I reply:


You again reveal yourself. There is not room within our system for Sharia laws for Muslim and our “usual” laws for everyone else. To even think that is possible is just plain dumb.


I understand that you “believe.” That is no importance to me. What I want is for you to cease trying to undermine our Constitution and live under it or leave.


As for WW4, we are fighting it now.

He has not replied, perhaps realizing how damning his admission re Sharia Law really is.